tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post7935870402183021353..comments2023-08-09T06:08:13.287-04:00Comments on Division Nihil: System Wank - AttributesMarshall Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15647111558095583028noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post-10921127039864236492011-08-03T11:30:31.170-04:002011-08-03T11:30:31.170-04:00OK, let's take a specific example. You are Le...OK, let's take a specific example. You are Lex Luthor, and you're trying to figure out Superman's secret identity. As Lex, you have a 5 in all four mental attributes. You also have some dots in Lore: Superheroes and Research. You've been fighting this guy for a few years now, so you're pretty darn familiar with his routines, physical traits, and associates.<br /><br />How do you use Intelligence, Wits, and Reflection to solve the problem? And are those uses sufficiently different to warrant separate attributes?<br /><br />What would someone with 2 Intelligence, 2 Wits, but 5 Reflection be like? What about 5 Intelligence but 2 Reflection?Marshall Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15647111558095583028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post-75594934102147862052011-08-03T10:57:15.234-04:002011-08-03T10:57:15.234-04:00Direct answer:
Create new solutions; power throug...Direct answer:<br /><br />Create new solutions; power through some problem; create answers.<br /><br />I wouldn't let some Reflect to discover a new mathematical formula; but I would probably let them build up bonuses for the end roll.<br /><br />I liken to how Thaumaturgy is handled in Dresden Files - the final roll is very tough (and would use either Finesse or Power to solve); however, you can use Awareness, as well as other stats/skills to give you bonuses to make that end roll easier.Arashihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13536961829640913987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post-5923880657240652492011-08-03T10:44:28.715-04:002011-08-03T10:44:28.715-04:00If Reflection allows you to receive/discover or de...If Reflection allows you to receive/discover or declare information, what does Intelligence do?<br /><br />(Note, I'm not trying to be difficult here. These are problems that I've chased around in my own head for years now.)Marshall Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15647111558095583028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post-35739343807921532512011-08-03T09:25:54.514-04:002011-08-03T09:25:54.514-04:00I've become a huge fan of Fate's maneuvers...I've become a huge fan of Fate's maneuvers and would have the Awareness stat be the go-to stat for a lot maneuvers to put limitations on someone.<br /><br />So upon <i>Reflection</i> (ditto on the name) - I receive information from the DM that informs future actions; or upon <i>Reflection</i> I make declarative statements.<br /><br />Regarding elegant game design - I think Ravyn is being cutesy - we're all fairly intelligent people capable of coming up with something that works, now the question is whether we can roll well enough on our Wits + Game Design to make something that works elegantly. :)Arashihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13536961829640913987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post-81357633485203395322011-08-03T09:21:05.030-04:002011-08-03T09:21:05.030-04:00I think that's definitely splitting hairs betw...I think that's definitely splitting hairs between what Wits and Reflection (nice name, btw) do. Also, I think that it would be tricky as a GM to build scenarios in such a way as to consistently reward a high Reflection. I'm also trying to think how Reflection would end up working with the various skills in this way. Wits + Mechanics lets you fix or invent things, while Wits + Larceny lets you figure out where the weak spots in a heist target are. What skills naturally pair with Reflection, or how would Reflection be used with various skills?<br /><br />I think you misunderstood my question on elegant solutions. I wasn't talking about elegant game design, which is a worthy goal. Rather, Arashi's definition of Wits had it determine the elegance of the successful skill check, and I wasn't sure what the value there was. With his subsequent explanation, I think I understand.Marshall Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15647111558095583028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post-35735901262146655442011-08-03T01:03:05.540-04:002011-08-03T01:03:05.540-04:00Here, what about this?
Intelligence and Resolve r...Here, what about this?<br /><br />Intelligence and Resolve remain unchanged. If we go with Wits as mental finesse, we might consider it combining and synergizing the information--tracking the facts we have together and forward to come to a solution or rationalize what we have, whether they're the right facts or not. <br /><br />Our Mental Awareness--let's call it Reflection, for now--might be used to sort through the facts we have, determining whether new ones are relevant, removing ones that aren't or noting when some are just plain incongruous. For instance, a good Reflection roll might tell us that it's really weird for someone as buddy-buddy with demons as our current antagonist appears to be to be stealing the local equivalent of Demonology for Dummies, but not tell us <i>why it's weird</i>--that's for the other attributes to figure out.<br /><br />Re reasons to have elegant designs: otherwise, we have to deal with a bunch of messy exceptions, rather than just making sure everything works the same way. Just look at what we're doing right now! The system's got an effective model, but is it an elegant one? If it were, I don't imagine we'd be going back and forth this much. <br /><br />(Though given that I come at this having only played in those White-Wolf systems where Perception and Appearance are Attributes, mental/social resistance is either Something Else Entirely or an Ability, and the usual explanation for Wits vs. Int is how fast you think versus how well, I may not have the best of angles.)Ravynhttp://www.exchangeofrealities.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post-22355476555059907232011-08-01T12:50:25.846-04:002011-08-01T12:50:25.846-04:00Because occasionally finesse is needed when straig...Because occasionally finesse is needed when straight power won't do. I can blow up a safe to get at what's inside, or I can finesse the lock so that no one knows that I did it that way.<br /><br />I also use it for speed of thought - quick on the mental feet.<br /><br />---<br />But it isn't an end in and of itself, it is almost entirely passive in its effect of exerting change on the world. <br /><br />If you notice a scent, then what? You notice a scent - there's no change in the world, just your understanding of it - which may make it easier to disable the explosive, give a clue(bonus) to figuring out who was in the room last, etc.Arashihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13536961829640913987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post-74580164631560087972011-08-01T12:45:43.032-04:002011-08-01T12:45:43.032-04:00@BeZurKur - Ah. As I have never been drawn to the...@BeZurKur - Ah. As I have never been drawn to the DC universe, I never looked at that game. Duly noted.<br /><br />@Arashi - What is the point of gaining an elegant solution, other than being marveled at?<br /><br />It looks like you use Awareness to modify the difficulty of the subsequent task. That's a very interesting take on the problem. Not entirely sure I like it, as I do prefer Awareness to be an end in itself (e.g., noticing an odd odor, knowing that someone is lying).<br /><br />My take on the Mental stats has always been:<br /><br />Intelligence - Knowledge is power. This measures how much information you keep in your brain, and how easily you can bring it to bear on a problem. Uses: memorizing a map, recalling the weakness of a creature, remembering the phone number of your Congressman.<br /><br />Wits - No knot unties itself. This measures how good you are at solving puzzles, figuring out how things work, and using existing information to deduce new information. Uses: figuring out who the murderer really is, fixing the office copier, developing a new retrovirus.<br /><br />Resolve - Focus. This measures how good you are at staying on task and avoiding distraction. Uses: staying alert on stakeout, completing a massive research project, resisting magical influence.<br /><br />Awareness - ????. Noticing patterns is part of Wits. Remembering details is part of Intelligence. Noticing details is generally part of the physical awareness. Self awareness is generally part of Resolve. I'm really not at all sure what this would do.Marshall Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15647111558095583028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post-60330485026218660682011-08-01T11:59:42.406-04:002011-08-01T11:59:42.406-04:00DC Heroes is the first game I can think of that ha...DC Heroes is the first game I can think of that had the 3x3 paradigm of attributes. Being a supers game, it had plenty of powers that targeted the different families.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12460232211687806213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post-15026311744715735502011-08-01T11:35:24.852-04:002011-08-01T11:35:24.852-04:00Mental Power - AKA Intelligence - How effective is...Mental Power - AKA Intelligence - How effective is your solution. Brute force is effective but not elegant.<br /><br />Mental Finesse - AKA Wits - How artistic is your solution, how much will people marvel at the solution as being elegant. Your answer may be very elegant and efficient, but not sufficient.<br /><br />Mental Resolve - AKA Resolve - How long you are willing to struggle with the problem. Your solution may be elegant, and be sufficient, but do you have the focus to finish the answer?<br /><br />Mental Awareness - AKA ????? (Not convenient to look at what I called this) - How aware of you of how the problem is interconnected within itself.<br /><br />The trick is that remembering that Awareness rolls are rarely an end in and of themselves - they generally set-up the difficulty or ease of the follow-up solution.Arashihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13536961829640913987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post-13781316677059176692011-08-01T11:26:45.444-04:002011-08-01T11:26:45.444-04:00Can you elaborate on the difference between Mental...Can you elaborate on the difference between Mental Awareness and Mental Finesse there? Both would seem to be serving much the same purpose.Marshall Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15647111558095583028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post-33344889074537269202011-08-01T11:24:08.923-04:002011-08-01T11:24:08.923-04:00When I've added the fourth category "Awar...When I've added the fourth category "Awareness"<br /><br />Physical - Spatial Awareness - where are things in position to each other.<br /><br />Mental - How do things interconnect - the state for figuring out how things work.<br /><br />Social - How do interactions/people work.Arashihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13536961829640913987noreply@blogger.com