tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post4020037590161136556..comments2023-08-09T06:08:13.287-04:00Comments on Division Nihil: Shared Fantasy - Women in GamingMarshall Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15647111558095583028noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post-39335286719580263362021-04-12T05:46:26.931-04:002021-04-12T05:46:26.931-04:00If your garage door has the old system, replacing ... If your garage door has the old system, replacing it with a new one can guarantee you safety and give better security to your home. Therefore, as you shop for a new garage door, you need to focus on finding a door that has modern security features for guaranteed safety. <a href="https://repairmygaragemaryland.com/upper-marlboro/" rel="nofollow">https://repairmygaragemaryland.com/upper-marlboro/</a>Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06373128569096562691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post-36369366712052633922021-04-12T05:43:59.151-04:002021-04-12T05:43:59.151-04:00Garage doors are designed to offer some level of s...Garage doors are designed to offer some level of security to your home. With the improvement in technology, advanced security features are now being incorporated into the design of garage doors. <a href="https://nextdaygaragedoorservices.com/garage-door-repair-ashburn-virginia/" rel="nofollow">https://nextdaygaragedoorservices.com/garage-door-repair-ashburn-virginia/</a><br />Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06373128569096562691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post-7604114089073417772019-08-21T02:07:23.472-04:002019-08-21T02:07:23.472-04:00I definitely enjoying every little bit of it. It i...I definitely enjoying every little bit of it. It is a great website and nice share. I want to thank you. Good job! You guys do a great blog, and have some great contents. Keep up the good work.<br /><a href="https://gemsandjewelsforless.com/" rel="nofollow">Gems and Jewels</a><br />rosstaylor505https://www.blogger.com/profile/03028086942696143284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post-51474914798983640192019-07-09T04:47:43.579-04:002019-07-09T04:47:43.579-04:00Thanks for taking the time to discuss this, I feel...Thanks for taking the time to discuss this, I feel strongly about it and love learning more on this topic. If possible, as you gain expertise, would you mind updating your blog with extra information? It is extremely helpful for me. <a href="https://www.nexttopgamer.com/how-t...ark-tycoon-hack/" rel="nofollow">offroad outlaws hack</a>Asim Qureshihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04911200635433680339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post-32618811569754978172019-07-06T04:46:02.094-04:002019-07-06T04:46:02.094-04:00Thanks for the blog loaded with so many informatio...Thanks for the blog loaded with so many information. Stopping by your blog helped me to get what I was looking for. <a href="https://www.bringtherobots.com/" rel="nofollow">war robots hack</a>SkOfficalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11967236366538526605noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post-52252580983300199012011-08-01T11:40:13.814-04:002011-08-01T11:40:13.814-04:00Plus ONE Marshal. But remember that it takes all t...Plus ONE Marshal. But remember that it takes all types to define words like fun. The fun that Fine wrote about in Shared Fantasy is Woebegone Days today, much like his definition of the RPG subculture today is a relic, regrettably. <br /><br />From my perspective, maybe a nostalgic or not with the times older man, I think the old style of game that brought people into the game more closely (like a game of Scruples would at a party) is 10 times better than RPG as poor man's video game. <br /><br />40 years ago, maybe because there were fewer dark/adult/any fantasy novels around, people mostly played themselves in-game situations, imagining themselves as heroes rather than someone else. The persona mask was permission to be free and express yourself as a hero (AKA main character) same as the people with whom you gamed. It was the social status leveling in the Golden Age of the social misfit; the cliché of Richard Corben's DEN. And bullies had better things to do with their time or, at least, fewer targets who were the ones imagining themselves to be heroes.@RA_Whipplehttp://twitter.com/RA_Whipplenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post-42845122040524035682011-08-01T08:35:13.799-04:002011-08-01T08:35:13.799-04:00I will admit to certain personal bias here. I thi...I will admit to certain personal bias here. I think that all PCs should be heroes. Possibly anti-heroes, possibly reluctant heroes, but heroes nonetheless. Also, I refuse to believe that bullying is fun. Most especially, I believe that, as it makes the experience less fun for the group as a whole, it represents the one way you can lose at an RPG. But, in both cases, that is strictly my viewpoint, and not something I can defend in general.<br /><br />Also, I feel that your comments simply reinforce our need to label bullying, sexism, and similar anti-social behavior as both aberrant and unwanted in the gaming community. If we simply shrug and say, "Well, yeah, some gamers suck," then there is nothing to discourage the behavior. And, likewise, there is nothing to counterbalance the newbie's impressions. "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."Marshall Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15647111558095583028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post-53203954045386681102011-07-30T06:21:20.016-04:002011-07-30T06:21:20.016-04:00Just poking my head in to stave off the monotony o...Just poking my head in to stave off the monotony of that damned brochure. (Just a comment here while I shirk my duty.) <br /><br />“Most especially by the players, who theoretically should be playing heroes.”<br /><br />I would correct you on the word should. It is a subjective call on your part. I had a guy who did not want to play a hero. It’s a long amusing story. However, “the hero” of a story is also the main character(s) and that is definitely what players should be playing. The guy I mentioned did not even want to play that. <br /><br />“Not because it's "wrong" necessarily, but because making the other players uncomfortable is no fun.”<br /><br />Not true. It may not be fun to you, the bullied. It’s great fun, even “scientific,” to those dishing out the abuse. This speaks directly to my comments after your post on the Conclusion of Shared Fantasy. Chronic Rules Lawyering is one mild form of this and precisely what Gary Gygax was speaking out against (on page 111). There are only so many games you look forward to attending where you are constantly told you are wrong or do not fit in with the groupthink. It’s more a pathological reaction (stronger than perceptual defense) than any conscious winnowing, IMHO. [I also think Television programming is crap but people still watch so what do I know?!]<br /> <br />“I do think that if we, the community of gamers, are going to intentionally offend people as part of the introductory process, we are going to have a hard time growing the hobby.” <br /><br />Precisely. However, I doubt there is any raw data to form a statistic that backs up this common sense. Once people get an introduction to a game like this, especially if the offender can hide behind a rule as written (RAW) gaming pretext, they understandably never return. [Most people coming to RPGs for the first time expect to play games RAW because that is their very experience with board games, sports, etc… so why not in an RPG?] Why would people want to play a game they believe have rules meant to offend? It is comparable to a player walking into the Monty Python Argument Sketch who does not want to argue: they leave. They believe the DM is playing by the written rules he claims to be. (The subset of first time experience does not include people who are 100% familiar with the RPGs concept.)<br /><br />Marshall, you and I might figuratively kick that guys ass. Me more than you because I claim Rule 0 to be immutable. But you and I are hardly newbie gamers. Consider that RPGs allow players to wear masks. Consider that a bully’s mask may be his OOC “sweet guy” persona rather than his IC “cruel” mask. A newbie thinks this is the way the game is played. If the newbie likes it, the newbie then buys a rulebook. If not, he walks away from RPGs without making an investment and tars the whole industry from the one experience. This is my personal history of which I speak, needing to assure someone that there are different styles of game because of Rule 0. (It’s not all the same Monopoly.)<br /><br />“Why is it so hard for us to just get along and be civilized?”<br /><br />It’s a reaction to being ignored rather than valued as individuals. We are de-valued. We are written out of the RAW. We get loud and entrench and forget the shared interest that could otherwise move us forward together, collaboratively.@RA_Whipplehttp://twitter.com/RA_Whipplenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post-75550183709144356732011-07-26T08:52:16.349-04:002011-07-26T08:52:16.349-04:00Your comment on storming, or hazing, is interestin...Your comment on storming, or hazing, is interesting. I hadn't really thought of it in those terms. Of course, I don't really get hazing as a concept, either. It's always seemed terribly counter-productive to me. It's pretty much the whole reason I didn't join a frat.<br /><br />I do think that if we, the community of gamers, are going to intentionally offend people as part of the introductory process, we are going to have a hard time growing the hobby. I think that your reactions to your group's behavior show that you're in at least basic agreement with this. However, I do think I somewhat understand that there are cultural norms that encourage forcing people to climb a barrier to get in the group. Separating the wheat from the chaff, making sure that the people who do join are not going to start rewriting the norms, etc. I just ... well, think it's all kind of dumb.<br /><br />Why is it so hard for us to just get along and be civilized?Marshall Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15647111558095583028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post-64996857925411124602011-07-26T08:45:44.939-04:002011-07-26T08:45:44.939-04:00I will certainly accept that sexism, and nearly an...I will certainly accept that sexism, and nearly any other sort of -ism, can be appropriate in character. However, there are lines, even there, that I don't think should be crossed. Most especially by the players, who theoretically should be playing heroes. Not because it's "wrong" necessarily, but because making the other players uncomfortable is no fun.<br /><br />Of course, there is always an exception to every rule. If your party is the crew from Firefly, the player of Jayne pretty much has to be crude, sexist, and generally ignorant. That's part of his character. But, part of the party dynamic is also meant to highlight just how wrong Jayne's attitudes are. If your group is on board with something like that (as a player, it would be poor form to spring it on them and expect them to roll with it), and are mature enough to handle it with grace and humor, that can be fantastic.<br /><br />I'll say that, in my experience, it backfires nine times out of ten. Lovely in theory, poor in practice.<br /><br />My disposition, and hence my advice, is to start out as inoffensive and inclusive as you can. Add comments and innuendo as you become aware of the tastes and hot buttons of your other players. After all, there are whole worlds of humor, character, and engagement that do not rely on dick and fart jokes.<br /><br />Of course, I do recognize that not everyone feels that way.Marshall Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15647111558095583028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post-3974827621786991132011-07-26T06:19:16.704-04:002011-07-26T06:19:16.704-04:00Hi Marshall,
I'm not a prolific writer as yo...Hi Marshall, <br /><br />I'm not a prolific writer as you can see from my time stamps but I intend to respond to your replies. Hopefully my intention is not held up in purgatory while on the road to hell. LOL<br /><br />"I'm not entirely sure I understand this attitude. First, why do the women need to prove they can take it? Why can they not be legitimately offended by the comments? Second, why is it up to women to be offended? Personally, I'm offended by a lot of the examples I quoted above, and most of the guys I've played with over the years would be too."<br /><br />Well, I don't mind in-character (IC) sexism. As a DM, I must be guilty of being offensive once in a while IC because I play so many of characters, villains and louts, and not all should be nice. But it is different out-of-character (OOC). Or should I say when I re-assume my character; who I am “out-of-game.”<br /><br />The explanation why "women need to prove" may be explained in the cultural dimensions players bring to the table OOC. We are North American and find sexism offensive; yet we North Americans may not treat women as harsh as the male newbie at the gaming table, which is inequitable from another's perspective. (I just encountered something similar to this on my girlfriend’s Facebook account.) But, take it from me, ours viewpoint is but one perception. We can agree ours is the "right" value but that judgment is based upon our shared cultural value(s). <br /><br />This is really emphasized when you play with a variety of people from different cultures. <br /><br />Group dynamics state that the formation of groups undergoes stages of storming, norming and forming. It may be the bitter taste and blind fold of a fraternity or ritual college hazings but it happens. I think it’s all so childish but, then again, I do not belong to any groups I do not control. One female player left our group while another stayed. I understand the reasons why the one left and even agree with them but the other who stayed is treated like a sister - which is interesting. Maybe both were treated like sisters, meaning in the cruelest childish manner of sibling relations – without the violence. <br /><br />Both are pretty women: the former, a married Bulgarian-Polish businesswoman (35), and the latter, a single American student (23). Poland is a masculine culture compared to America. The demographic thumbnail gives you an indication of the individual's self-image. One woman was not going to take it while the other thought nothing about it.<br /><br />This works for the men too. I am 44. When I heard about the sexist comments (I was not at that game) I was upset. I was embarrassed because I had invited this person to join. Those under 30, Mediterraneans by the way, did not express any emotion sensitivity towards the female. The other Canadian, 20, did however. <br /><br />I remember when the Canadian joined, our youngest player. He was verbally hazed. I was at that game and thought it was offensive. He had VERY limited experience with D&D and I really thought the group made a poor showing of itself for his first game. I also felt offended because this was my group, I did the searching to put it together, so I took the group’s behaviour personally like the parent of unruly children. But this behaviour calmed. <br /><br />The storming behaviour has calmed with our female gamer too but the insensitivity towards inappropriate jokes continues. This suggests enculturation to me rather than intentional oafishness.@RA_Whipplehttp://twitter.com/RA_Whipplenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post-10208004277367454492011-07-25T09:55:43.275-04:002011-07-25T09:55:43.275-04:00"The onus is firmly on the women to prove the..."The onus is firmly on the women to prove they can take it."<br /><br />I'm not entirely sure I understand this attitude. First, <b>why</b> do the women need to prove they can take it? Why can they not be legitimately offended by the comments? Second, why is it up to women to be offended? Personally, I'm offended by a lot of the examples I quoted above, and most of the guys I've played with over the years would be too.<br /><br />There is a certain amount of innuendo and joking that is perfectly fine. And, within those borders, I've generally heard most of the women I know give as well as any of the guys. But, there is a definite difference between "I bet that ogres have really big penises, ha ha" and "I bet when an ogre rapes a goblin she just explodes, ha ha." Maybe it's just me, but I've never found the latter funny under any circumstances, let alone in a fantasy game.<br /><br />I do find it interesting that your experiences with physical vs. non-physical stories corresponds with Fine's theory. As a note, I was doing some more thinking on this subject the other day, and realized that this may be why World of Darkness (Vampire, Werewolf, et al.) was seen as appealing to women. The core stories were generally political or mysteries, as opposed to the traditional quest format. The urban fantasy/goth motifs may have actually been a secondary concern.Marshall Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15647111558095583028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3657939522599154982.post-75994244267611619942011-07-24T09:00:37.412-04:002011-07-24T09:00:37.412-04:00"While Tom's reactions are extreme, he is..."While Tom's reactions are extreme, he is never sanctioned by others. Given these examples, it is perhaps not surprising that few females participate in these games. ... Although females were not present when these comments were made, it is not surprising that male players do not invite their female friends to play. ... If female players were present, men would likely consider the game less 'fun,' and possibly make negative attributions to the female player."<br /><br />I quite agree with Fine's observation from my own experience playing with two women in my multicultural group of Americans, Europeans, and Mediterraneans. The onus is firmly on the women to prove they can take it. The loose talk of sausage fests is just untame lips working before brains, but the jokes that require deliberate set up can be offensive. It is all the more surprising because this conscious behaviour comes from married men of median age 30 with female babies of their own.<br /><br />The current game is an extended fetch quest roll play, attesting to the "physical role-playing of childhood tamed into a verbal activity" with its incharacter/masked jibes. The women are attracted to a new campaign that will centre on a political story (you mentioned Game of Thrones, which is an example I will re-use here). While the males want to go off to battle and man or "level-up," the females favour a story.@RA_Whipplehttp://twitter.com/RA_Whipplenoreply@blogger.com